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Visit Raymond Max's column >>

RAYMOND MAX

Raymond Max wants to know. How's your America.
Articles Posted: 138  Links Seeded: 139
Member Since: 11/2008  Last Seen: 5/09/2012

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Is Banking and Government evil? Don't like it, Drop out.

Thu Jul 2, 2009 5:36 PM EDT
politics, obama, government, msnbc, recession, unemployment, banking, federal, too-long, credit-drop-out
By Raymond Max
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Most media commentary would suggest the answer to this very complex question is yes.

If you were to buy into the conspiracy propaganda circulating the web. Bad banks, preying on under informed customers. Exurbanite fees, sky high default rates.

Government programs that are seemingly tailored for big business. Federal job creation that is non existent. The status quot returning to D.C's inner circle, weeks after promises were made that would seemingly reshape our present world.

Much to worry about !

Once again our brave young president is expressing concern as to the growing rate of unemployment in our nation. seriously, President Obama is concerned that his constituency may be facing ongoing un as well as underemployment. The president says "It's gone on too long."

And then of course, the issue of predatory banking is big in today's news. It seems as though Banks are dumping losses on their performing customers. Folks that have made payments in a timely manor. That's strange, A lending institution that is in business to make a profit. Who ever said banks were fair?

My dear Friends: Obama is not going to fix everything. The Banks are not going to eat their losses. Those that believe that government and banking is the root of all evil, I have a kind suggestion for you.

1. Pull your cash out the bank, if you have any left.

2. Cut up your credit cards, live off cash. Bankrupt your major institutional debt.

3.Burn your social security card. Destroy your voter registration card.

4.Refuse to pay your taxes.

Let me know how that works for you. In the mean time, I'll continue to work with the system that's in place. It's just a matter of time before our economy begins it's slow but steady turn around.

R.Max

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  • Raymond Max's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: Free Thinkers, FROM THE INSIGHT OUT, Grounded for Life, Happy with Corporate America?, ObamaExpress, ObamaVine, Our Orwellian World, Outraged Americans For Justice, Political Analysis, The Vine 12 Step
  • Regions: Portland-OR, Los Angeles, Washington DC, New York
  • Public Discussion (37)
Raymond Max

Walk it off. Those of you that are convinced that we are all victims of conspiracy, Read my lips. You don't like it ? Drop out.

The major banking institutions are 200 hundred year old dinosaurs

The Government? Your guess is as good as mine.

But I do know for a fact. You can live in the underground economy. Your choice. Work with the system that is in place. Change it if you can. Or,,,, Drop out. R.Max

  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 5:44 PM EDT
Nofluer

Banks aren't evil - BANKERS are evil! ;-D

Or you could do what the Fed is doing. They're creating hyperinflation by keeping interest rates artificially low (just exactly what Greenspaz did), while at the same time working currency swaps with other countries, the USD for their currency.The stated purpose of these swaps is to increase the foreign bank's liquidity in USDs, but there's already a ocean of USD out there!

I'm thinking it's more likely that they're hedging the dollar - if we end up with hyper-inflation, the Fed makes a mint.

  • 5 votes
Reply#2 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 6:03 PM EDT
Lampell

Ever wonder why the Fed is so accomodating to banks? They is owned by banks, not a conspiracy, they are actually owned by them. The Fed consists of bankers on the board of the Fed. What you have is a quasi government agency with the power to regulate, basically themselves.

  • 4 votes
Reply#3 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 6:13 PM EDT
Raymond Max

No kidding ? really, wow! amazing. Come on you guys..

    #3.1 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 6:28 PM EDT
    Teodoro Leon 3

    No kidding. The secret is out. You didn't get the memo?

    a Plea to President Obama...The truth of Executive Order 11110 will set you and US(A) Free . Be as courageous as JFK and expose the Agenda. Disempower "them" with the truth.Start with the Federal Reserve as initiated by JFK

    Wrestling Sovereign State Economics from the unconstitutional FED.Issuance of State Notes.Getting Back to the Constitution.Reasserting State Sovereignty.

    http://www.lib.umich.edu/govdocs/jfkeo/eo/11110.htm

    Notice that the url has library of michigan,government records...looks pretty valid to me...conspiracy? Not by me. But there is a conspiracy.Against you.

    The major banking institutions are 200 hundred year old dinosaurs

    Did you really do research into the 200 yr old claim that you spout? And then ,does that justify it? This statement is highly inaccurate. Misleading.

    This here is the truth that JFK understood...

    Executive Order 11110

    AMENDMENT OF EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. 10289
    AS AMENDED, RELATING TO THE PERFORMANCE OF
    CERTAIN FUNCTIONS AFFECTING THE DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

    By virtue of the authority vested in me by section 301 of title 3 of the United States Code, it is ordered as follows:

    SECTION 1. Executive Order No. 10289 of September 19, 1951, as amended, is hereby further amended --

    (a) By adding at the end of paragraph 1 thereof the following subparagraph (j):

    "(j) The authority vested in the President by paragraph (b) of section 43 of the Act of May 12, 1933, as amended (31 U.S.C. 821 (b)), to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury not then held for redemption of any outstanding silver certificates, to prescribe the denominations of such silver certificates, and to coin standard silver dollars and subsidiary silver currency for their redemption," and

    (b) By revoking subparagraphs (b) and (c) of paragraph 2 thereof.

    SEC. 2. The amendment made by this Order shall not affect any act done, or any right accruing or accrued or any suit or proceeding had or commenced in any civil or criminal cause prior to the date of this Order but all such liabilities shall continue and may be enforced as if said amendments had not been made.

    JOHN F. KENNEDY

    THE WHITE HOUSE,
    June 4, 1963.

    • 3 votes
    #3.2 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 8:40 PM EDT
    Teodoro Leon 3

    Sorry, forgot the source...

    Newsvine - On the 4th of June, 1963,JFK signed Executive Order ...

    On June 4, 1963, a virtually unknown Presidential decree, Executive Order 11110, was signed with the authority to basically strip the Federal Reserve Bank of its power to loan money to the United States Federal Government

    at interest.,

    With the stroke of a pen, President Kennedy declared that the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank would soon be out of business.

    The Christian Common Law Institute has exhaustively researched this matter through the Federal Register and Library of Congress and can now safely conclude that this Executive Order has never been repealed, amended, or superceded by any subsequent Executive Order.

    In simple terms, it is still valid.

    When President John Fitzgerald Kennedy - the author of "Profiles in
    Courage "-signed this Order, it returned to the federal government, specifically the Treasury Department, the Constitutional power to create and issue currency -money - without going through the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank.

    President Kennedy's Executive Order 11110 [the full text is displayed
    further below] gave the Treasury Department the explicit authority: "to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or
    standard silver dollars in the Treasury."

    46 yrs and 1mth coming up July 4th.(well if my calculation is right)

    • 3 votes
    #3.3 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 9:10 PM EDT
    Raymond Max

    Welcome Teodoro Leon. I'm not quit sure what your point is.

    Interesting information to be sure. as to my 200 year old comment, it was ageneralization based on the age of Wells Fargo, Chase, Morgan, City Bank of New York. The Bank of italy= B.O.A. Etc. Not intended to mislead, simply to provoke thought. Your efforts are proof of my statements effectiveness.

    We may be absolutely screwed. But if we are, then the majority is.

    A hand full of Billionaires hold the majority of the monetary wealth on the planet. So be it.

    Iam simply stating the obvious. That one has the alternative of existing under the radar. Thanks for the extensive resource info.

    B.T.W, my comment to Lampell was tounge in cheek.

    • 1 vote
    #3.4 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 10:43 PM EDT
    Lampell

    B.T.W, my comment to Lampell was tounge in cheek

    I knew that :)

    • 2 votes
    #3.5 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 11:34 PM EDT
    Raymond Max

    Your comments are always welcome Lampell. Added value.

    • 1 vote
    #3.6 - Fri Jul 3, 2009 2:10 AM EDT
    Teodoro Leon 3

    I'm not quit sure what your point is.

    Okay, sure,Max.Contracts entered into through fraud,ignorance,and/or under duress are null and void.Also when an illegal act has been committed.

    - a mistake occurs

    - a promisee tries to avoid the contract

    - one party lacks capacity

    - certain events cannot be prevented by the promissory, so the contract becomes impossible

    So I hope this clarifies it a bit.These are remedies to our dilemnas.

    The Fed Res has already been dropped...now to enforce EO #11110.

    We have our own resources. The people and the land.Divinely endowed.The Constitution of the USofA.

    • 2 votes
    #3.7 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 4:47 PM EDT
    Raymond Max

    Email coming your way. You have caught my undivided attention.

    1.Mortgage.

    2. Credit card.

    3. lines of credit.

    Show me some law that applies. I am not interested in conspiracy theory. What might work. Get it? Show me what will work, and I will be it's stronest advocate. R.Max

    • 1 vote
    #3.8 - Mon Jul 6, 2009 12:56 AM EDT
    Teodoro Leon 3

    Mortgage foreclosure precedence set in 1969 case of the "First National Bank of Montgomery V. Jerome Daly" by instrument of "Consideration." "And upon this revelation the court rejected the bank's claim for foreclosure and Daly kept his home"

    Neighborhood Watch:Reasons/Remedies to file motion restraining Sheriff against action of foreclosure and eviction

    http://commonlaw.findlaw.com/2009/02/produce-the-note-foreclosure-delay-tactic-can-encourage-lenders-to-negotiate.html

    As described in Consumer Warning Network's How-To, the strategy works as follows:

    1. After you receive notice of a foreclosure suit from a lender who claims to own your mortgage, you file a request, with the court, for production of the original promissory note.
    2. If the lender does not respond in 30 days, you file a motion to compel production of the note. This is a request that the judge order the other side to produce the note.
    3. Most often there will then be a hearing where the judge will decide whether to force them to produce the note or not. Should you win, the lender can't foreclose until they produce the note (which could prove very difficult for them). Should you lose, you would still have had the extra time in the home and perhaps the opportunity to negotiate with the lender.

    Consumer Warning Network's How-To includes free forms for requesting production of the promissory note, and also for filing a motion to compel. The group warns against scams offering "produce the note" forms for a fee.

    Consumer Warning Network cites an increased tendency in judges to hold lenders to the letter of the law in the surging number of foreclosure cases, including the New York Times report of an Ohio federal judge who threw out 14 cases in 2007 when investors trying to foreclose could not prove ownership. April Charney, head of foreclosure defense for the Jacksonville, Florida Area Legal Aid also uses and strongly advocates the "produce the note" strategy. As reported in the Florida Union Times, she says that for some of her clients, it has put foreclosure on hold for years.

    • "Produce the Note" How-To (Consumer Warning Network)
    • How to Use "Produce the Note" in Non-judicial Foreclosure States (Consumer Warning Network)
    • 'Interlopers' in mortgages find foe in Legal Aid (Florida Times Union)
    • Securitization of Mortgages May Make Foreclosure Much More Difficult (The Real Estate Bloggers, November 2007)
    • Watch Out for Foreclosure Scams (FindLaw)
    • How to Avoid Foreclosure (FindLaw

    hope this is a start

    • 2 votes
    #3.9 - Mon Jul 6, 2009 7:04 PM EDT
    Raymond Max

    Most gratefully accepted. Thank you for your efforts. I'll be in touch.

    • 1 vote
    #3.10 - Mon Jul 6, 2009 11:42 PM EDT
    Teodoro Leon 3

    Thank you Max.

    I'm hoping and praying that many people will be able to access this very relevant and powerful truths before they are dispossessed of their wealth and resources...donot wait,my friends. Pass this along to those you know and don't. All of you write or seed an article per/info..get the word out!

    You all do matter greatly to me...especially the blind and ignorant! You are my brothers and sisters. And I love you .

    Internet 2 is a hinderance...

    • 2 votes
    #3.11 - Tue Jul 7, 2009 11:52 AM EDT
    Reply
    bwells

    Wholesale acceptance of wrongdoing, where it is indeed taking place, sounds pretty ridiculous and defeatist to me.

    I've never understood the way of thinking that says, "Sure company X can rob me blind cheating and using dirty tricks... They're just trying to make a profit- it's their god-given right to do that how they please!" I don't think so. But company X sure does love those customers.

    I for one am glad there are people out there willing to complain loudly. More power to 'em.

    • 3 votes
    Reply#4 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 6:37 PM EDT
    HeelsnHairMetal

    Its funny, I just wrote an article that touched on the "banking is bad" sentiment. People need to understand that some banks make poor decisions, and some consumers make poor decisions. Banks gave people loans they never should have, and people took loans they never should have.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#5 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 6:43 PM EDT
    Lampell

    . Banks gave people loans they never should have, and people took loans they never should have.

    You left out one part, lets include government policy over the years. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac "allowed" the banks to make shoddy loans because they bought and guaranteed half of all mortgages in this country. Without that money the banks would have had to stop loaning. And lets face it, why would a bank care about the quality of the loan, if they could issue it, make a profit and flip it to someone else?

    • 6 votes
    #5.1 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 6:53 PM EDT
    HeelsnHairMetal

    you are right, they would not. Until things came to a screeching halt they could unload the loan. But with things went south, they got caught with bag loans on their books and no place to put them.

    But you are right, I left the govt out of the equation. I was imply trying to make the point that people are quick to say the banks are at fault for "tricking" me, when in many places people "tricked" themselves.

    • 2 votes
    #5.2 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 7:06 PM EDT
    Lampell

    I was imply trying to make the point that people are quick to say the banks are at fault for "tricking" me, when in many places people "tricked" themselves

    I understand your point, but lets face it, when an individaul messes up, you can be sure they aint gonna blame themselves, its not human nature, its always the other guys fault:) I wont even say that the government policy per se was bad, it was the law of uninteded consequences and to be honest there probalby werent too many politicians or government officials who could predict that in addition to cheap money there was securitized loans being packaged and sold off and to top it off credit default swaps insuring the debt all of which as we see know turning into a financial meltdown.

    In addition,while people point to deregualtion of banks, many people failed to see that a whole new class of entities sprang up that are in fact shadow banks, hedge funds, equity funds that are not regulated at all.

    • 4 votes
    #5.3 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 7:31 PM EDT
    HeelsnHairMetal

    Exactly. The average American cannot even define what those entities are, let alone what they really do. We need a new class of informed citizens, thats for sure. I thin Obama is doing himself and the American people a disservice for not telling them that we consumers also bear a share in this. Put it in people's faces and make them smell their own load. But we all know nobody wants to hear that. :)

      #5.4 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 7:55 PM EDT
      Raymond Max

      Welcome Kym in D.C. A very true statement.

      Interest charged by the lending institution is in place to offset possible future default.

      I do not condone it. I'm simply suggesting that those that spend countless hours complaining and pointing fingers, stand up as a group and protest. Or , move to the underground economy. Right or wrong, Banking practice is slow to change.

      • 1 vote
      #5.5 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 10:49 PM EDT
      Reply
      Raymond Max

      Bingo Lampel. That is the point of my short blurp.

      Too many passing by their own reflection in the mirror as they point a finger at what they perceive as the cause of their financial misery.

      I have actualy had clients look me strait in the eye while stating " Banks kept lending me cheap money. More than I could ever pay back. They never asked about my income. They should not have lent me the money.

      Can you imagine? A person so blind to the truth of the matter: They should never have borrowed the money. We all know exceptions. This Blurp is about choices.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#6 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 10:56 PM EDT
      neenie1991

      Banks kept lending me cheap money. More than I could ever pay back. They never asked about my income. They should not have lent me the money

      Where was that bank? I worked as a processor for a mortgage company and if someone said this to my face I would laugh until I cried.

      I left it because the borrowers were being pressured, I was being pressured and loans were being pushed through for people who were not financially qualified to pay them back. I am not excusing the borrower. The market was hot and sub-prime paper was get pushed HARD. It was going through Fannie/Freddie all the way. Everyone has some culpability.

      • 2 votes
      #6.1 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 11:08 PM EDT
      Raymond Max

      Welcome neenie. This is exciting. Someone from the industry stepping up to the key board. As a Realtor, I rarely if ever hear this story from my mortgage brokers. Please expand your comment a bit if you will. Thanks for dropping by.

      • 1 vote
      #6.2 - Fri Jul 3, 2009 2:08 AM EDT
      neenie1991

      Oooh, I left ten years ago. I could not handle the stress and after spending many years working in the legal system I had trouble with all of the "fudging" I was being asked to do. The bottom line was writing the loan, for the loan officer, realtor, lender, title co., whatever. There are/were myriad documentation requirements and myriad ways to get around many of them.

      When it comes to sub-prime paper, you have sub-prime requirements if you will. Have a job, fog up a mirror, FICO of 500 and you were probably good to go. It was sickening. I got caught talking a couple out of getting a loan. My azz was grass. Mind you, I got a bonus for every loan I closed as well. And points are made on the back end. It was just an ugly business. I hated it.

      • 2 votes
      #6.3 - Fri Jul 3, 2009 2:20 AM EDT
      Raymond Max

      Thank you neenie. Can you share with the readers how points and fees are rolled into the back of a loan. Also, how much was the average signing bonus ?

      • 1 vote
      #6.4 - Fri Jul 3, 2009 11:57 AM EDT
      neenie1991

      Well, If I can remember. :)

      There are some 'junk' fees. A processing fee, (varies or could be 'waived') credit report fees, doc fees, title fees - things like that. Some were B.S. Ways to pad and make money. Some were real - credit report fee - appraisal fee. It would give some wiggle room for us to tell borrowers, sweeten the deal. It was VERY competitive. Remember when there was a mortgage company on every block?

      When it comes to your interest rate, on a regular prime loan say the current rate is 8%. You want 7%. You can buy down the rate by paying points. It was usually 1% of the loan amount if I remember correctly. ( that doesn't sound like enough to me, but you get the picture) 200k loan, you pay 2k and get 7%.

      A way we, the brokers and others make money is from each lenders rate sheet. Each lenders sheet would have the rates listed from say 6.5% to 9%. Say the best rate today is 7.5% at 0, and 7.3/4 is at (+.25), I/loan officer can call the borrower and tell them that we can get them 7.3/4 today if they lock in the rate. (They know the rates fluctuate, sounds like a deal, we quote what the payment will be) They lock in the rate at 7.3/4. Now we(broker) get the +.25 on the back end. A quarter of a point 'rebate' when the loan closes along with all of our other fees. And .25 was low. Borrower none the wiser. And even when they buy the loan down, we could still do it.

      Sub-prime loans there was no buy-down, borrowers didn't have the money. They are doing 100% financing. People were getting into houses for $1000.00. Creative financing. But still, lots of money to be made. I think the mind set was, these people deserve what they're getting. There were millions of loans financed this way, hence the current financial/foreclosure crisis - in part.

      The banks, mortgage companies, Fannie/Freddie, brokers, loan officers, borrowers, non-regulation, the 'dream' of the American dream, instant gratification, lack of education, greed, predatory practices, myriad reasons for the collapse of the housing/financial market.

      I could not do it anymore. I think of some of the people we did loans for that I KNOW can't possibly have their homes now. That I had any part in that is sickening.

      • 2 votes
      #6.5 - Fri Jul 3, 2009 12:49 PM EDT
      Raymond Max

      Thank you neenie. I drove by a home that I had sold to a divorced client 3 years ago. The deal was pretty strait forward. He had a down payment. His income was on the edge of qualifying. I know tat he was a project manager for a retail sales, sign and fixture company. We got him into the house.

      Today, as Idrive by that home, it looks like a ghost town shack. Must have lost his job. Tough business. As a Realtor, I too worry about my past clients. The 2 year flip/ refinance cycle came to a grinding halt. I know that many that bought homes in the last five years intended to refinance. No more. Friend request coming your way.

      • 2 votes
      #6.6 - Sat Jul 4, 2009 1:14 PM EDT
      neenie1991

      Thank you Raymond.

      It is sad. Certainly in the past some people would lose their houses for various reasons, but not in the epidemic proportions they are now and for basically the same reason. It was that boom culture. And yes, that intent to refinance was a big selling point, especially with the ARM loans.

      • 2 votes
      #6.7 - Sat Jul 4, 2009 1:32 PM EDT
      Lampell

      It was that boom culture. And yes, that intent to refinance was a big selling point, especially with the ARM loans.

      Remember when a second mortgage was called a second mortgage? Isnt a home equity line, with a plastic card so much more convenient:) Buy cars, with it, go grocery shopping, buy new TVs, yup thats the American way, and best of all you get a tax deduction on all of that:) When my wife and I bought our house in 2005 after living and working in our 1 bedroom apt for 14 years the mortgage broker tried to talk me into an ARM with interest only. It took 2 hours to convince her that I wanted 30 year fixed rate. She wasnt being dishonest in my opinion but to her 30 year fixed was so old school, like a dinosaur. And of course lets face it, its all Bush's fault:)

      • 2 votes
      #6.8 - Sat Jul 4, 2009 1:38 PM EDT
      Reply
      Lampell

      Raymnond

      While waiting for Jepardy to start, I was watching the local news on ABC, which reported that it wasnt the sub primes loans that are the problem, it was the people who put nothing down that are the ones defaulting. I said to myself, how nice that they now consider nothing down as not sub prime:)

      • 2 votes
      Reply#7 - Sat Jul 4, 2009 1:26 PM EDT
      neenie1991

      LOL! Duh. There was financing at OVER 100% to cover closing. Pfft.

        #7.1 - Sat Jul 4, 2009 1:34 PM EDT
        Lampell

        LOL! Duh. There was financing at OVER 100% to cover closing. Pfft.

        My cousin, a very nice lady, who is in real estate, told me in 2005 that she could get me into a house for nothing down interest only. Playing stupid, I asked her, then how do I build up equity, to which she said, well house prices always go up, you will build up equity that way. Having been a stockbroker with a cynical eye, I said to myself, oh boy thats the end of this housing bubble:) Sometimes its the little things that tip you off. Sort of like interviewing the man in the street.

        • 1 vote
        #7.2 - Sat Jul 4, 2009 1:43 PM EDT
        Raymond Max

        Mis quotes on the news? that's strange. L.O.L. The truth is, most buyers that secured a property with an adjustable were convinced by the broker, that they could easily convert to a low fixed rate in a couple of years. Good enough.

        What most folks don't take into consideration is the cost of that refinance. Of course today we find ourselves in a financial environment that is very selective on refinancing. If your home has equity.

        It has been reported that only 2 out of 10 that bought or refinanced in the last 5 years can qualify for that same loan today. Equity is the biggest stumbling block. The elimination of stated income loans for the self employed is the second. It will turn around. But not soon.

        • 2 votes
        #7.3 - Sat Jul 4, 2009 6:49 PM EDT
        Reply
        Tex-988483

        Well, I did the first two on yer list many years ago. I've lived in an underground economy as well. A day might come when I finish off yer list but we'll just wait and see how it all shakes out.

        I vote that I may complain to my hearts content. I work from the edges in to alter things but without much hope of any real or radical alteration of the way thangs be. For true change and social justice to come about we would have to have a strong degree of solidarity and do things that, to me, are quite unpalatable. Consequently I am somewhat content as an outsider and, being a visual artist, able to be the visual chronicler of our community destiny. Whatever it may be.

        And yeah, hell yeah, I do not believe the banks nor the government are the friend of the working man. Thus it has ever been and no doubt will continue to be. It is not so much a conspiracy as much as they, every man jack one of em, are greedy shytes that think little of and care less for the working class.

        Perhaps the same drive and fierceness of the 19th century labor movement will arise again one day and pull us towards some degree of balance. I ain't holding my breath....

        best to all

        • 2 votes
        Reply#8 - Wed Jul 8, 2009 9:32 PM EDT
        Raymond Max

        Thank you Tex for your thought provoking commentary. Sounds like you and I are cut from the same cloth. I 'll be in touch. Best wishes back at you. Ray

          #8.1 - Thu Jul 9, 2009 12:26 AM EDT
          Tex-988483

          Well, thank you right back. I've enjoyed your articles. Here's hoping Eugene is gettin well on the economic front. It's a hard ride with grim at the end in this neck o the woods. I miss Oregon but for now looks like I'm where I'll be fer awhile.

          In Art and Solidarity (apologies to Joe Bageant)

          Best to you and yorn......

          • 1 vote
          #8.2 - Thu Jul 9, 2009 11:31 AM EDT
          Reply
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